Tune-o-matic vs Roller
Back in 2009, I described my frustration with the Tune-o-matic bridge on my Epiphone Riviera P93. The retainer wire that holds the saddle screws in place is just a terrible design. A good choice to address this issue is the Nashville style tune-o-matic which has individual saddle retainer clips, while also increasing saddle-adjustment range for intonation. Another good possibility is a roller bridge, like the Wilkinson B33. I figured the roller may pair well with the Bigsby, possibly improving the Bigsby vibrato’s general tuning instability.
In this video, I show how to swap in the Wilkinson bridge, and then do a series of comparisons to see if there’s any difference in the overall tone, sustain, and tuning stability with the two bridges.
I recorded many many takes of the strum-tests comparing tone and sustain, and my results were always pretty inconsistent. Despite my best efforts, it’s impossible to produce the exact same string excitation for each strum. So, I think the variances in sustain and tone are largely insignificant- though it does appear that, across all my tests, the roller may have slightly longer sustain times. I imagine that if I replace the Epiphone bridge posts with the beefier Wilkinson posts there may be a greater sustain improvement, but I’ll leave that for another day.
The tuner I use during the tuning stability section is the excellent Planet Waves Tru-Strobe (PW-CT-11) tuner.
Tagged with: Bridge • Epiphone Riviera P93 • Intonation • Roller • Video
Filed under: Guitar
Hello there! Great video.
It sounds to me from the sample comparisons like the sustain of the rolling saddles is higher on short notes, and maybe lower in the “long run”. That’s a very desirable effect in my opinion.
Thanks for another great video!
Cheers
I love your videos! They are always very interesting!
john, you are always on the run!!!!! Great video!!!!! Best regards!
i think the best advantage of the roller vs TOM will be string lifespan.
These TOM tend to cut the strings when worn, so, with a bigsby behind it, call it wire-cutter
And as you said, its much more comfortable than the sharp saddles of the TOM.
Good point about string longevity!
Thanks. It’s so nice to have a review of guitar gear that is done using sound experimental methods. I can watch this video and walk away w/o too many questions or none at all about the two bridges. I really appreaciate your scientific approach and methodology.
Thanks again.
Nice video. I have been thinking about putting a roller on my Epiphone SG as I have installed a Bigsby B5 to it. This was a big help in my decision making process, thank you.
very good vid. thanks very much !!!
Hi John,
Have you tried lubricating guitar nut and bridge saddles with graphite? Regular graphite pencil will do the job.
Andriy.
Yes, I talk about that at 8:45 in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDSBQnl8txw#t=8m45s
John
OK, I am officially going to unleash you on my Starfire III to make it the best it can be. Of course that means you need to figure out how to re-glue the neck but I’m sure you are up for it.
Hey Chuck,
We’ll see- I’ll take a look but I may not have the necessary tooling and expertise to fix that neck. When strung up, the neck has hundreds of pounds of force acting on it. Probably makes sense to go see a good luthier. I’ll give you a couple phone numbers
-John
Great video. Thanks for posting.
I have this bridge and love it. Intonating it was not as big a deal because I just slightly nudged the string out of the way and was able to loosen and tighten the screw. I never had to lift it off of the saddle at all. Something that makes this bridge a HUGE upgrade is how it can make a guitar that just can’t be intonated finally be able to intonate. WORD of caution: if your bridge is already close to the body, this bridge might not work, it is taller than a normal TOM…I had to mod my guitar
Very good thorough demonstration!
How about the sound? I’m so seek of constantly rattling of this guitar and considering the same bridge as you, Wilkinson roller bridge.
I just have changed to genuine Gibson TOM and the result was awesome! No rattle sound!
I have intonation issues with the standard TOM on my Epiphone Dot, Does the Wilkinson Roller Bridge have more “play” when moving the saddles forward or backward, than the standard TOM?
Yes it does.
Okay, thank you so much. I just ordered one of these bridges and hope to get it here in the next couple of days.
yyour voice is calm as hell lol
Hi, what is this software you’re using for the intonation check?
You mean the visualizations during the sustain timings? I was using Wavelab’s spectroscope and VU meter windows.
Hi John.
Great info. I can also recommend a Schaller STMC (or Schaller STMG for gold hardware). With that bridge you can also move strings sideways – just in case the string spacing seems quirky. I’m using the STMC with a Epiphone Dot. Seems to sound better than the TOM – and strings seem to be softer than before
Thanks for the info. The adjustable string spacing is nice.
I just bought a gotoh bridge and tailpiece to try out on my Lea Paul. Will be interesting to see if there’s any more difference than with the wilkinson roller vs TOM…
John
Great video, I am returning my Schaller and Goldben age roller bridges back to StewMac and putting in the original tune-o-matic.
Great video’s. I watched all the electronic upgrades, and soldering video’s too. Great tutorials John.
MY QUESTION: Would the Wilkerson Roller Bridge be an effective upgrade on a non-vibrato Epiphone L.P. also?
Thanks,
Paul
Yes it would been ok, but if there’s no vibrato, the roller seems less useful. I’d be more likely to install a nashville or the gotoh 1511.
Of course, that and that you never pull up and bend a string. Rollers with a wraparound combo are the way to go even without vibrato
I forgot, tuning . With a roller, you get less friction while tuning.
I’m planning on getting a bigsby for my epiphone goth sg. What should i get? a B5? B7? do I need a roller bridge?
On a flattop like the SG, you can use either B5 or B7. On an archtop, you can’t use the B5. Roller bridge is not required, but you may prefer it. Inexpensive and easy to try, as you can see in this video.
I just purchased a Fender HH and am putting on a bigsby with a vibramate no drill system I am looking to buy one of those roller bridges to fit it where did you get yours
Thanks
John
I purchased it at guitarfetish (“Wilkinson Brass Roller Bridge- Locking studs- GOLD”, item id B33)
I’m in the process of building my own guitar. I’ll be cutting out the body myself, and i’ll be slapping a B-5 with a roller bridge on there.. It’s gonna be interresting to see how well it intonates from the start O.o
Sounds like a fun project- have fun!
Great vid, I’ve just bought another fixed bridge guitar, I never use floyd rose or bigsby’s, I do have a few strats, but I have added extra springs to lock the bridge back.
Anyhow, I dont feel comfortable with tune-o-matic bridges, I palm mute ALOT and I hate the saddles sticking in to my palm, so I’m gonna replace the bridge with a wilkinson roller, just for comfort.
I was just wondering, did you find you had to alter the bridge hight when you switched? Did you have to alter the action at all?
I was able to get the action pretty much right back where it was- and it’s definitely more comfortable than the TOM.
Hi John
That’s a pretty comprehensive review, great work!
I’m just now fitting a Wigsby (Wilkinson tremolo) to a new Gibson SG Faded Special. I also have the Wilkinson roller bridge which will be going on there.
However! Just for people’s information:
The roller bridge will NOT fit directly onto the original Gibson bridge posts. The original posts are too thick by about 1.5mm. It means I’ll have to drill the roller bridge – as I don’t fancy ripping the Gibsons out. I don’t have tools.
Cheers
M
Thanks for the Info, Matt. Guessing that’s an Epi vs Gibson (import vs USA) difference with the tune-o-matic posts? Or perhaps its Nashville vs standard TOM. Are your posts not screwed into a standard bushing? Generally, it’s easy to just leave the bushings in, but unscrew the posts and replace them.
Hi John
The Gibson bushing is actually too SMALL (!) for the Wilko posts to screw into. Way too small. I’m sorry, I can’t measure them for you now. It’s my first non-Fender, so I’m afraid I don’t know what standard or Nashville sizes are. Whichever one it is, the Wilko post into Gibson bushing isn’t compatible, nor is the Wilko bridge onto the Gibby post. Phew! Hope that made sense! Prepositions!
Hey. Your vids are great. Love that Epiphone.
BR from Helsinki
Made sense! Well- good thing the Wilkinson roller is so cheap- not much to worry if you screw up with the drilling.
Hi jhon, i have a guitar ESP EC500 anniversary model in LTD line: http://www.zikinf.com/_gfx/matos/dyn/large/ltd-ec-500_2.jpg
Mi problem is the cutting or breaking of the 5th and 6th string just over the bridge, this happens occasionally, correct TOM bridge with sandpaper and lasts a long time, approximately 4 months. This is also for my style of playing the guitar that is violent (metal, hardcore, grindcore), I imagine that this bridge is the solution to this problem. one vital question, this bridge is the extent of my ESP LTD can be installed?. thank you very much, a friendly greeting: Vladimir////// sorry for my English…
The roller may help you with string breakage at the bridge – I’m not sure.
You can see this bridge here:
http://www.guitarfetish.com/Wilkinson-Brass-Roller-Bridge-Locking-studs-GOLD_p_868.html
The post spacing is 74mm.
Good luck!
John
Thank you very much John, I will see the steps and then I commented as I was. Greetings: Vladimir from CHILE South America
A well thought out and executed demo. Your spectrograph-over time display was really useful. I agree it’s very difficult to draw a useful conclusion since you can’t really perfectly match the strum each time. I have a Gibson ES-335 with a Nashville TOM and Bigsby that is simply unbearable to keep in tune. If I bend a note or look at the Bigsby it goes out of tune. I’ve decided to fit it with a TonePros Roller bridge. I am hoping I will see more dramatic positive results.
Amazing Video .. .so helpful
Such a nice review. I’m having the same problem with the wire of the tune-o-matic on my Epiphone Casino, and maybe the roller saddles are the perfect solution. I found on ebay another kind of roller saddles in wich you can change the entonation just like the tune-o-matics, you might want to check them out.
Cheers.
Thanks for the tip- those Tune-O-Matic style roller bridges look nice, but I haven’t tried them. Adjusting these Wilkinson saddles is a little fiddly, but it works alright, and it has good intonation range.