Crazy Tone Thing
After much deliberation, experimentation, determination, and the inevitable procrastination and distraction… I’ve finally completed this comparison of tone capacitor material types and capacitance values. In part 1, I’ll evaluate a bunch of different dialectric material types to see how they change the character of the sound. In part 2, I’ll cover how different capacitance values affect the range and usefulness of the tone pot.
First, I built this Tone Thing 
It’s a piece of cardboard on which I mounted 7 different capacitor material types, and 7 Orange Drops of different capacitance values, and one Bourns 500k audio taper pot. This is connected up with alligator clips to my Epiphone Riviera P93, in parallel with the signal at the output jack (the same place as the master tone in a regular guitar circuit).
The caps in this corner are all .022uF of different dialetric material types. Pictured left to right: Orange Drop 225P 100V (polypropylene), Mallory 150 series (metallized polyester film), Russian K-409 PIO (paper in oil), mystery vintage yellow cylinder (now identified- CDE polyester film/foil), the original Epi tone cap (probably mylar polyester film), mystery vintage gray cylinder (now identified- Mullard Mustard polyester film/foil), and a vintage tropical fish (polyester film). Unfortunately, I couldn’t find a .022uF tropical fish – this one is a .033uF. It will have a slightly different cutoff frequency, so it’s not quite all apples and apples, but I wanted to include it here anyway because it does have an interestingly different sound to it.
For each material type, I play at 4 knob positions: 10, 7, 5 and 1 (measured on the multimeter at 499k, 238k, 41k and 3k ohms). For the examples, I wanted to keep each part short and simple – not too melodic or difficult, both to avoid distraction in comparing, but also to try with my limited playing skills to be as consistent as possible between each take. By the end of this video, you will be very sick of the three little phrases I play 28 times each in the video!
Stay tuned for part 2, covering all the Orange Drops at different capacitance values, and the exciting conclusion
p.s. Thanks Jack for sending the PIO!
See part 2 for a description of RC filters, and how a guitar tone controls works, and how to choose a good capacitance value for tone.
See part 3 for a bunch of followup Q&A and some more audio examples.
See here for some blind tone comparisons.
Tagged with: Capacitors • Electronics • Epiphone Riviera P93 • Video
Filed under: Guitar
Brilliant as always
A real public service. Thanks John.
So to my ears, the orange drops (polypropylene) sound quite a bit brighter than paper in oil. (and both of them sound more ‘full’ than the stock cap that came with the riviera). This is more evident when the tone knob is open all the way, the differences are less evident when tone knob is closed up. At least thats my initial impression.
Seems to me tho that the cap question should be answered last (after amp selection and pickup selection) as you say above, since those two probably have a much bigger impact. But after amp/pickups are selected, maybe the cap selection can compensate (make brighter or warmer) any deficiencies in the amp/pickup combo.
Definitely something to consider. Looking forward to part 2!
Getting more treble from a pickup without changing it.
I was watching your video on youtube about the tonal characteristics of different tone capacitors which btw was very informative. But the question I have for you is I have an epi G400 SG and I am looking to increase the treble response of the bridge pup without changing it. I did some research and posted a question on geek chat if you are familiar with it but didnt really get any good advise from that. Then I contacted a seller on ebay who was selling treble bleed kits and they recommended a russian pio .15uf cap which they said would really brighten up the treble response of the pup. I just wanted to get your feelings on this before I get the cap installed along with the CTS pots I am putting in the guitar (which btw are audio taper pots). Please get back to me at the email address provided as soon as you can.
Putting in a tone cap of smaller capacitance may brighten up your
sound a bit, but it’ll be subtle. Modifying the tone pot to be
no-load will have a bigger impact (as it completely removes the tone
cap from the circuit, when on 10). See this post for a demo and
explanation of how-to do that.
When selecting your new pots, you can choose higher resistance and
that’ll reduce the load on the pickups, brightening up the sound a
bit. IOW, if you currently have 250k ohm volume pots, change them to
500k. If you have 500k, you could try 1meg.
You may have to do some experimenting to find the right combination…
Hope this helps,
John
John, thank you so much for your efforts producing this test for us,
I’m glad someone finally did.
I always link this page when an argument about cap stars
As stated by one of the first posters David, the difference is non
existant that it completely does not matter what cap you use.
The only benefit is for the person who sells you those “VINTAGE SPECS CAP”
Gibson even sells a pair of “Bumblebees” for 113$ WOW what a rip off.
Your guitar cable changes your tone more with EVERY FOOT than a
million “bumblebees”
Cheers
Hey there,
I don’t think the differences are non-existent, because I do hear small differences. However, I totally agree that the differences are too subtle to warrant spending a lot of money on. You’re right that so many other variables play a much bigger role in the sound.
$113 for a cap (or pretty much anything over $5 or $10) is ridiculous!
Cheers,
-John
Brilliant, I hear some subtle differences. That may be due to the slightly differences of their actual capacitance. However, the original cap and the Orange Drop sound more balance to more although the Russian and the next vintage yellow cylinder do have some characters I like for soloing.
I don’t understand how people cannot hear a difference between the different capacitors: are they listening through laptop speakers?
Everybody’s ears (and priorities) are different. I’m no golden-ears, but I can certainly hear differences even on my laptop speakers.
And, as I often say to my daughters, sometimes you only hear what you want to hear…
-John
I can hear the difference too. One thing left over from the test when the pot is at full (500k) positon: just simply subtitute a capacitor with a short circuit.
I wonder if there is anybody that can tell me why can I hear the difference when the pot is at 500k. Because the capacitor value doesn’t affect the tone (if the cap is more then 1nF).
Holy cow, never seen such a deep explanation on tone.
hi i see you know alot about this so maybe u can help me im looking for a capacitor to help with that slash tone for my epiphone les paul plus top what do u recomend or sugest
hello im looking for a capacitorthat will give me the most slash sound what would u recomend
@knoxwood85 – I can’t really recommend a particular cap type. In general, it’s not the tone cap that’s going to make you sound like slash
He plays a Les Paul, so start with that.
@knoxwood85 Get some Duncan Alnico II Humbuckers, Slash edition. The tone cap wont change your tone unless the control is on zero. On 10 the cap has no affect on the signal.
@knoxwood85 i wanted this tone also and i got slash alnico pro 2 pickups and that was the biggest difference almost right away i got the tone i was looking for. as for the capacitors he uses orange drop caps…a 15 on the neck pickup and a 22 on the bridge. also a les paul is what u need…i got epiphone and made all the mods to it that the “appetite for destruction” les paul has. also u really want to get a marshall amp. this will get u the tone, but actually sounding like slash, GOOD LUCK!!
@nathanihensel He’s right. I build pedals and guitars and did/do extensive testing over years. Now I’m also involved in pro-recording.
Once the capacitance is matched there is no way to tell two caps apart in guitar circuits – except that ceramics are microphonic.
An expensive paper cap that’s under value will be “warm” instead of “dull”, and one that’s over will be “open” instead of “brittle” or “cold”. The language used depends on the mythical value of the cap.
@DavidRavenMoon Spot on.
@nathanihensel It’s easy to test too. Get two cap types that you think are polar opposites: So, a paper, bumble or fish, and measure a few really sh!tty ceramics ’till you find one the same exact value.
Make a test jig, offer to blind test someone else who believes the cap myths – and see just how uncomfortable they are to be tested.
The other recognized deal is performance variation and bias. Playing can easily be different enough take to take in recording “tests” to bias them.
@DavidRavenMoon Well I don’t know what you’ve been stuffing in your ears… But I heard a marked difference with my eyes closed, using high quality headphones. Age, materials, and design of the capacitors all affect the tone. We are talking negligable differences if you are plugged into a 100 Watt Marshall stack, but there is a difference
@Rafterman123 I have perfect hearing. All those things you are saying about caps does not matter when used in a passive tone control circuit. The guitar’s signal is NOT passing through the cap. It’s in parallel to the pickup. The only part of the signal passing through the cap is being shunted to ground. So unless the cap’s rated capacitance value is off, they will all sound the same. So you can have a difference between two of the same type of caps as well.
@Rafterman123 Also, the guy in the test was not strumming exactly the same between tests. This might have been accidental or unconscious based on what he expected to hear. This is called conformation bias. This was not a proper double blind test, and we don’t know how the capacitance of the wired used in the switch box altered the results. And some paper in oil caps are fake anyway, like the Gibson Bumblebee repros. So how do you know what you are getting.
Tropical Fish FTW.. To my ear, it has the warmest tone, fat mids, and crisp highs
thx for this good comparison…very nice. Even though I think changing your pick (plectrum) will affect your tone much much more.
Bottom line is that after a couple of foot-pedals nobody can tell the difference except maybe the guy who never plays outside his bedroom – nit-picking over this, that or something else doesn’t make a good player. The audience doesn’t know, doesn’t care about these insignificant tone differences…which are a matter of personal taste anyways.
@johnplanetz i’m planning to shield my guitar with copper tape so i can eliminate the hum but,they say it will affect the thickness of the tone, based on your experience what do you think is the warmest tone capacitor ( jazz fusion tone ) on a HSS, 1 volume, 1 tone, 5 way configuration? thanks
@dpsd – I can’t recommend a specific cap for your configuration. I recommend you try a few with alligator leads and see what you like. You may find that PIO lends a bit of warmth, and you may also want a larger capacitance value (see part 2) to roll off some of the highs, or just roll back on the tone pot a bit.
@dpsd – I can’t recommend a specific cap for your configuration. I recommend you try a few with alligator leads and see what you like. You may find that PIO lends a bit of warmth, and you may also want a larger capacitance value (see part 2) to roll off some of the highs, or just roll back on the tone pot a bit.
I like the fat grey one lol
@johnplanetz I hope you know how respected these videos are in the community,
-Cheers
Hello !
I bought knew Pickups, and with them, there was a capacitor… Could you explain, where I have to weld it in ?
I think bitween ground and Tone-poti … but not sure.
Thanks !
BRUNO
@soaring138 – Could be treble bleed, or tone, or perhaps something else. What’s the cap value- maybe that will give a clue. What type of pickups? Did you contact the pickup manufacturer?
@johnplanetz Hello! The value is 0.04µF… for 3 Single PU (Strat) Kloppmann.
Thanks for your help !
@soaring138 – that’s a tone cap. You can remove your existing tone cap (between tone pot and ground) and replace it with the one you received from Kloppmann. Use some alligator leads and clip them in one at a time and choose the one you like.
@johnplanetz Thanks. Done. And by the way, I made the Treble Mod… Very good job John !
Hi, great informative video you made here ! One QUESTION: does the voltage on the tone cap make any difference ? I want to try some orange drops which are all 630V, pretty high for guitar I think or is it ? Thanks !
@rioolput123 – no, voltage makes little difference. A guitar signal is typically way less than 1 volt, so you don’t need to worry about it. That being said, different construction techniques for higher voltage caps may result in a slightly different sound character.
vintage fat grey cylinders are the tone i like. thanks for the nice video
Thank a lot for this video!
Before I read that others had posted that they liked the Fat Gray’s I had chosen them as well for best tone. Just a more rounded tone. Thanks for the vid. Effective effort to teach. Now its off to Part 2.
I like the yellow cylinder best eithe Russian paper an oil next. Both had the bit I like.
Thanks for a great video.
those two were the sweetest, the russians then the yellows for me.
Amazing videos. So helpful
Thanks heaps for this demonstration side by side. Really shows the subtle differences between them.
O like the tropical fish and the original epiphone
V fat grey sounded the fullest mostly to me. Def my fave.
hey again, man, I have just one more question to ask you, does, rewiring the guitar, make the output or volume of the guitar louder ? thanks
If you change the circuit during re-wiring, it is possible to make the guitar seem louder. Reducing load on pickups can make the sound brighter, and also a bit louder.
See my video “Epiphone P-90 Pickup Experiment”. Also my video “Epiphone Electronics Overhaul, Before and After Comparisons”
The Russian paper in oil seemed to be missing higher Hz tone .. I’d avoid that one, cos if it came from the Soviet era, you might wake up one day to find you can only play stuff in very depressing minor keys..
gracias mi niño eres una verga
thanks for your feedback, it was very helpful
Capacitors really have nothing to do with the tone,it’s the actuall tone pot and pickups that do that, only the different values make a difference in tone roll off, however, some caps roll off the frequencies a little bit smoother than others do. I can actually hear subtle differnces in the roll off some of these caps and if I had to choose which ones work best in my opinion, I would go with 1.-Mallory 2.-Orange Drop 3.- PIO 4.-Fat Grey Cylinder 5.-Tropical Fish .- 6.-Epiphone 7.-Yellow Cylinder
FAT GREY CYLINDER! Old stuff is somehow the best
2:50 demo starts
This guy is awesome… Someone actually did this
Is it my imagination? Or is that Russian paper in oil capacitor producing a very slight noticable smoother tone (perhaps darker, less bite…something) in position 10 then the others. Also i swear that mallory 150 has a slight edge to it. Some say that a capacitor effects the sound even when the tone is in full treble mode & others say otherwise. I wanted to mod a guitar with a russian .022 & a mallory 150 .047 using a on/on switch for some variation. Now i am not so sure such a mod is worth it
I agree there are noticeable but very subtle differences. In general, you’ll get a far bigger tone change by experimenting with capacitance values, rather than capacitance material types. Not to mention tweaking your pickups, pickup height, pedals, amp settings, etc.
Hi, I have a squier strat that comes with cheap alnicos pickups, but for me sounds too bright, do you think that changing the capacitor on tone pot can I get better sound? what size of capacitor can I put ? thanks for any help
If it’s too bright, you can change the total volume pot resistance to a smaller value. If you have 500k volume pots, change to 250k. That will roll off some brightness by increasing the load on the pickups.
Increasing the tone capacitor capacitance (for example.047uF or even .1uF) will also roll of some highs, even if your tone knob is on 10, but you may have to roll the tone knob back a bit further to notice a bigger change.
That tone cap sets the tone for the whole guitar!I’m talkin’ with the pot all the way up!Try a .0033 and then a .022 HUGE difference,even when tone control on max treble!Yes the .0033 is a smoother tone taper but sucks the life put of the git.No bottom end at all.Most people commenting on the web state that changing the cap has no effect if tone control all way up!BS!”That cap sets the tone for the guitar”.Unblessed ears I suppose.Or,people experimenting with values and making minor change.
See part 2 of this video series for audio comparisons or different cap values, at all tone knob positions.
It’s called a varitone switch.they came in 345′s and 355′s.guess what?affected tone tremendously without touching tone pot.guess what?just a bank of caps on a rotary switch.easy to make a box with different value caps in it with rotary and plug your guitar in.I have a pedal for sale on E-Bay now.it’s called NoFex.$15.00.Consists of 2 switchcraft jacks in a box…In/Out with true-bypass!
You’re misunderstanding the Varitone. You’re right that you can easily make a rotary selector for different tone caps. But the Varitone switch doesn’t just select a cap- it selects between a number of notch filters of different frequency/resonance values. Each switch position selects a cap/resistor pair in series with an inductor to ground. It’s a notch filter selector, not just a cap selector. So of course it dramatically affects the sound. Look up the schematic for more details.
Just make the cap box.Lots of players use ‘em.Gotta have a decent guitar and especially amp also to hear bass frequencies!If flat with lots of mids change will be subtle.But with good amp the change is “drastic”!
We’re talking about two different things. The normal tone control (as described in this video – pot->cap->ground) allows you to have a variable rolloff, whereas the Varitone rotary switch gives you a selection of fixed notch filters. They’re both useful. A typical gibson with Varitone has both a normal tone contol and the rotary selector, often with the tone pot as a push/pull to enable/disable the varitone.
In this video series, I was obviously focusing on caps for the typical tone control.
The LRC setup in the guitar is the same as the varitone.Pups are the coil,pots are resistor and tone cap.LRC!There’s a botique bass maker who puts an on off switch on inductor for cap alone or with inductor!These caps are wired to tone pot also!Same as normal.I noticed a huge difference in tone caps probably ’cause I made drastic change.From .0033 to .047(more than 10X).The subtleties are harder to hear but this isn’t!Sorry sets the tone for the guitar.Even when not rolled back!
In a regular tone circuit as described in part 2 of this video, the tone cap does have an effect on the tone even with the knob on 10, but it is subtle.
For anyone still reading this thread, please just view video 2 to see how a tone cap (even as low as 1000pf) will sound in a normal tone configuration, or try it yourself with alligator clips.
And look up the schematic for the Varitone circuit to see how its fixed notch filters are arranged, and if that interests you, it’s not hard to build DIY.
It’s called a VARITONE!Paul Reed Smith has them also.If you can’t hear the difference in tone(cap switching)using varitone switch.You are a hurting buckaroo!I’m talking with the pot all the way up at all switch positions!!These values are picked to make the guitar sound it’s best(By Fender/Gibson etc.)without touching the tone pot(having it on 10)!A capacitance box is a lot easier to make and is permanent/utile,compared to the mess this guy made.Make yourself a varitone box.
Thanks for doing this. Imho the cap really doesn’t matter, cause you can EQ the subtle differences. I’m a tone chaser, but this is not a route to bother with. For me, anyways.
really digging the tropical fish… anyone else?
super sweet you dig this kind of stuff?
great video thank you!
…and i thought only audiophiles are obsessed with caps:)
for your experience what caps work best with two humbuckers?
i suspect that the fact you played through emulated amp , somehow effected the heard tone .
i havnt found any difference between the caps , also i think that better compare is to add cheap capacitor and than compare to the rest .
The VT30 certainly is not affecting the tone differently for different caps. The amp settings were invariant from test-to-test. And I get the same result with my AC15HW1.
That little brown poly-film cap is a “cheap” cap. I should have included a ceramic in the original roundup- see my channel for the followup parts 3&4 for a ceramic cap test.
i love it how you aer watching in the cam after every play xD
Which vendor did you get all these caps from?
I got the orange drops and mallory at mouser. Purchased the PIO on ebay.
you said at the beginning of the video that you changed all the pickups but they still look like P90′s, did you just swap out the epiphone P90′s for gibson ones?
I replaced the stock Epi P-90′s with a set of P-90′s from Vintage Vibe Guitars. See before/after in my video “Epiphone Electronics Overhaul, Before and After Comparisons”. watch?v=fxc6s6tXefE
5:18 5:28
good aers ! but mallory comes close to mine
Thanks for being as rigorous as possible! I rarely ever see that. (:
Also, I still can’t hear a difference, but maybe I’d hear a difference in person. ;D
Hello, John. It’s pretty obvious that, after watching your video, I do not have the ear for playing a guitar. I just couldn’t hear the difference. I do know that I can hear the difference on my Reverend Jetstream 390, which uses a bass bleed off type of system. I can’t find the wiring for this and don’t want to take my guitar apart. Got some suggestions for me on strat with H-S-H from Seymour Ducan? I’m planning on 2 vol. and 1 mst. tone. Would love to do something like the Reverend. HELP
720p! in the other you can’t hear the differences well
I only heard the difference in the part of the video where he does the string near the neck pickups. The high end is less defined on some of the caps.
Hmm ive been reading that tropical fish caps being better is bs, but i can clearly hear a difference, especially in the high end, is that more down to the different value?
The larger capacitance value on the tropical fish results in a lower cutoff frequency, and more high-frequency reduction. But I can hear other differences in the mids, etc, so it’s not just the cutoff frequency. I wish I could’ve tested with a .022uF tropical fish for the video – I just couldn’t find one at the time!
awesome vid. thank you so much for taking the time. very, very helpful.
Russian paper in oil all the way!
Sounded best on the open octave 12th fret.
Very thorough. Thanx
The PIO sounds very nice, but I was suprised by the vintage yellow one (which sounds like the PIO but with a hint more treble through),and the tropical fish. Those 3 would be the best IMO.
Very nice! thank you
The tropical fish seems best for what I am looking for, it kind of darkens the tone more than the others, perfect for a neck through steinberger all maple body with an sh6 in the bridge
I hear differences at tone 10 high cord from 3:34 to 4:16.
Russian sounds most compressed.
Is it because you are not stroking same? Or is it from the CAP?
I had same experience and differences seemed very small at my living room volume level, but when I played it on 50W Marshall Amp with loud volume, I noticed considerable change in sound character.
I think it has something to do with amplification of the sound signal, quality of the recoded sound and playback audio quality and volume.
I hear definite differences, both at quiet levels, and loud. The differences are subtle, but certainly audible. Whether these subtle differences are important or significant is a matter of subjective opinion.
Truthfully, the orig epi one is best. But the fish and both paper/oil ones were sooo nice too
I just would like to say that I appreciate your consistency in what you play, and your documentation in instruments/recording gear, and devotion to accuracy; its like a scientific method approach to guitar tones (not so strictly treble volume however). It is very well done, you should keep it up
.
It creeps me out when you look at me after you play each riff man! LOL JK great vid thanks for takin the time to do this. It was helpful
Any chance you were able to check the actual values of the caps? Many of those are 10% – 30% tolerance, so comparing at an equivalent tone pot setting for all could be a bit ambiguous as to the actual low pass filter pass frequencies. Although, my ear didn’t pickup anything drastic between them, so it likely it a non issue, but something to keep in mind.
I measured the cap values on a multimeter in part 3. watch?v=S7Hod21pIUI#t=2m50s
Great info, awesome! Thanks
Every Knee Will Bow, Every Eye Will See, Every Tongue Will Confess That Jesus Christ is Lord — – JESUS CHRIST REIGNS –
liked the paper in oil
orange drop is the best
Loved this video. Was waiting for someone to do a cap review.
I really like the sound of the .022 Orange Drop. but will a .022 sound as good with humbuckers? or do I need a .047 for humbuckers?
.022 will be fine.
Russian,my voite
sound is little warmer
The vintage fat grey one has my vote; pushes more mids and allows bass to come through.
I think you did a really good job of minimizing the variables.
Thanks for this. They all sound identical. I extracted the audio, and played it to some musician friends blind. It is amazing how fast the differences vanish when you don’t know in advance what you are listening to.
I also put the raw files up on my blog at planetz. com/is-tone-love-blind
The questions is: what is it that is being kept by a capacitor?……energy…….so how does this relate to sound?……..if I have 5 different cups made out of different material how does this
change its contents?….how important or negligible is…..
The water-cup analogy is so oversimplified that it isn’t very useful. To find more a more complete (but still simple) analogy, try “There are no electrons” by Kenn Amdahl. For more specifics with some good animations/graphics, see the wiki on capacitors. In short, in an A/C circuit, the electrical field (across the dialectric insulator) is very dynamic in relation to the frequency. The standard equations represent an ideal capacitor with perfect dialectric – but the real world is non-ideal.
A capacitor (originally known as condenser) is a passive two-terminal electrical component used to store energy in an electric field….depending on how it is used..u use them for filters, etc etc…Frequency dependent on its value…..i.e., same for all types..as long as the same value……by the way a guitar has 9 volts doesn’t SO that is DC right?I am glad you understood me…..In short, no sound difference and it is a good thing being curious as you are….again rad all the data sheet…..
The audio signal in a guitar is A/C, generated by the up/down vibration of the string over the magnetic pickups. When you say “a guitar has 9v”, I assume you’re referring to the power source for a preamp in an guitar with active electronics, or in an effects pedal. But having a DC power source doesn’t somehow turn an audio signal signal into DC. A capacitor completely blocks DC. Datasheets are important, but so is basic circuit analysis. See part 2 of this series for more info on the circuit.
yes indeed! thank you for answering.
I do not hear the difference ……they all sound the same……..to be open-minded ….if any it is probably out of our ear’s range BUT as I stated with the questions I previously stated regarding a glass of water example…..a capacitor stores energy so a benchmark of the data sheets of all those capacitors would be beneficial to see and understand further what is going on…..never take things for granted Good video!!
Hmn, they very much Do Not sound the same. I liked the Mallory and the Russian a lot.
The others are similar, but still not the exact same. I typically use orange drop, only because they are common and easy to pick and buy. Might have to try some mallory and some pio.
Nice work, fun test.
Yeah the mallory sounds really sweet at 7 on the 12th fret part. Perfect. I can’t see how anyone cannot hear the difference.
Thanks a bunch for doing this. your A-B comparisons with the Bill Nye wire setups have answered a lot of questions that 6 hours of reading articles over the past few days did not. I have a better idea what parts to order now. My wife is grateful that I wont have to spend a week with wires everywhere doing all the comparisons myself.
John did some awesome work, for those that “can’t hear” the difference I respect your honesty but for those of you claiming there is no difference due to the math on paper need to chill out with your “placebo” accusations. The level of math required for all variables is not accounted for, there are pretty obvious differences with some and some more subtle. As John pointed out the equations are based on “perfect world scenarios”, the diaelectric makes a lot of differences witht he same value in some cases. I leave you with this thought, Sergio, the tone guru at Mercury Magnetics has done blind tests on amps where everything was the same with the only difference being whether the Speakers were wired to a jack then to the jack on the output of the amp and wired directedly to the output taps on the output transformer, most could hear a difference.
Jonathan, you are saying a lot of things that don’t relate here, and have some things confused. The “math on paper” part is that a capacitor is rated at a certain capacitance.
That is what it’s function is. A cap doesn’t do anything else. The dielectric is what causes the capacitance in the first place. You can change the dielectric, but the cap is manufactured at a certain capacitance and tolerance. Therefore a .022µF cap is just that, +/- what ever it’s tolerance is. A cap passes AC voltage and blocks DC. In a guitar tone control is shunts higher frequencies to ground, but not the low frequencies. The cross over point is decided by the combination of the cap’s value and the impedance of the pickup. This forms a second order resonant low pass filter. You actually get a slight resonant boost at the cutoff frequency.
So the ONLY thing that matters in a tone cap is the rated capacitance. Nothing else, because nothing else is part of the circuit. If two caps both closely measure .022µF they will sound exactly the same. Period.
There are other parameters on caps, such as series resistance and leakage, and these do matter in something like a tube amp. In that environment you are dealing with high voltages and high impedances. And the signal is often passing through the cap.
In a guitar tone control, you are dealing with minuscule voltages, and fairly low impedances. So the hysteresis curve of the cap is fairly linear.
Usually what people hear as a difference between caps of the same value, but of different types, is the tolerance. One might be higher of lower than the stated spec. So to really do this test properly each cap must be measured, and you would need a bunch of them so you can pick through the bad ones and find close matches. Also the person strumming should not be the person switching. And both should not know which cap is which. Just as A, B, C, etc. Otherwise you have confirmation bias setting in. You can unconsciously change your playing to get the tone you THINK should be hearing. Ideally the guitar should be mechanically plucked so that it’s exactly the same every time. Anther problem is the alligator clips. This should all be soldered together with very short lengths of wire, otherwise you will not get the exact same connection each time.
Regarding your example of the Mercury Magnetics transformer tests, that’s something totally different and has nothing to do with guitar tone control caps.
You make many good points about blind testing, and variability in playing. However, I disagree that the ONLY thing that matters is the measured capacitance. In practice, many people do hear subtle differences with different dialectric materials, that are not accounted for just by the differences at the cutoff frequency.
I’ve been planning to redo some dielectric comparisons with a constant white-noise generator, to remove the variability of my playing from the equation. I’d run an identical white noise source through a simple tone circuit, with two caps of two different capacitance values, recording the results. Then subtract result 1 from result 2. If the only relevant factor was the measured capacitance as you suggest, then the resulting spectrum analysis would show only differences above the cutoff frequency of the higher capacitance cap – everything below would be identical, regardless of dielectric type, etc.
However, I don’t expect the real world to produce such ideal results. There are other important factors for capacitor dialectrics that are relevant even in a low-voltage circuit like a guitar. There is some frequency-dependent variability in the capacitance, which introduces some distortion and amplitude modulation – more so with some dialectric types than others. Read about dielectric absorption, dissipation factor, power factor, etc here: http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm
(and be sure to see table 3).
That article was written in 1980, before modern computer-based spectrum analysis tools, etc. I hope to some day do the white-noise tests I mentioned above. It should be relatively easy now to produce a definitive test to show that there are differences throughout the frequency spectrum, with caps of different dielectric types.
John
Yeah, I definitely hear slight differences in the materials used. In this video at least. ( which is excellent btw )
I closed my eyes and listened, then went back and watched and it seems to me the paper in oil seem to have less sparkly highs. or seem a little warmer. The tropical fish had more lows but that prolly cause the different value I’m guessing.
I’m no expert but I definitely hear the difference.
Great video my friend, I found this fascinating & can hear big differences between them… though I am wearing headphones which I think helps.
the lower the capacitance the higher the cut off frequency?
Yes, less capacitance raises the cutoff frequency, passing less high frequencies through the cap. So in a tone circuit with the cap wired to ground, lower capacitance value means less treble rolloff.
Is mayonnaise a tone capacitor material?
it should be!
I think i liked the “russian paper in oil” the best.
very interesting video …. the Russian paper in oil stood out a lot to me
Funny although the differences seem mild I actually seemed to get a warmer tone feeling out of the russian oil and all the vintages seem warmer as well seeming to indicate a capacitor ‘breaking in’ effect. as most know electricity is corrosive in that it does erode the path over time and that seems to have created the change in tone of the vintages. It would be nice to have a new and vintage same brand cap to test just to see. Anyways nice set up. Should do a blind listening test.
If you want to do a blind test- you can download the recordings from my blog (the link is in the notes below the video).
The original Epiphone was clearly the worst IMO followed by the Tropical fish and Mallory. I like the PIO best but all others sounded good, to my ears anyway.
Thanks for sharing this!
Hi,
I have done a few capacitor shootouts after after reading article by Dirk Wacker on the Premier Guitar site (June 2010,Tech Tips.A must read for people interested in capacitors for guitars(4 parts).
He went on to say he had problems with an old Strat a customer brought in.It having poor tone.He then photographed the electrics then pulled them down and tested them,finding nothing wrong soldered them back together.And found all was magical.
What was the fix that had occurred.It turned out the orange drop capacitor had been soldered on opposite to what it had been when it had been originally been brought in.
So I thought I will do a blind shootout with some friends who have played guitar for decades.I have 100′s of different caps old and new.Measured up a heap,solder alligator clips to a tone pot and began with a Strat and Les Paul.Well I was blown away by how much a cap changes sounds when the legs are swapped around.Near on all of them and pointed out by all blind testers.And the old 1KV Ceramics came out on top on the Strat and Les Paul.followed by some old Philco Ford type 177 caps.PIO were mid pack(bumble bees, Sprague, ood-All, Gudeman,Black Cats, etc)Russian ones came in below the old U.S.A ones but still good,then Mullard mustard caps,Orange Drops,tropical fish,Mallory 150,etc.
This blow us all away I was a PIO man through and through so were a couple of others,a couple were orange drop and tropical fish lovers. But that all changed on that night.
P.S. Strats really love old NOS high voltage(1KV+)ceramic caps.
Whatever caps you use try them both ways around 9 times out of 10 there will be a difference in sounds.
Cheers hope this helps
Very interesting! It didn’t occur to me to try reversing these non polarized caps, but I’ll try it next time I’m gutting a guitar!
Thanks,
John
I like the communist capacitor.
The Yellow Cylinders are nicknamed “Mustards”. Orange drops and mustards are the most affordable / best sounding. Vintage Gibsons used “Bumblebees”, but beware! Some companies actually make cheap caps and put vintage enclosures on them (refurbished). Vintage Mustards are around but are expensive to score. Just go with Orange drops at whatever rolloff you need. Russian cap cuts too much high end; no “bells” there for strat lovers or soloists.
Yeah- even the boutique Luxe Grey Tiger and Gibson Bumblebees are actually just cheap caps wrapped in in pretty housing (perhaps they do some careful part selection for tolerance, etc- but they’re nothing particularly magical). See my blog post from 10/28/10: planetz .com/the-caps-new-clothes
Thanks for the great videos, subscribed.
Stewmac sell some Emerson caps. Do you know which of the ones you demoed the Emerson’s would sound most like? I’m thinking of putting them in a Strat with Dimarzio Injector pickups (noise cancelling & hot). I’m trying to put together a list of components to put in that will give it a hifi sound with lots of clarity and maybe a little spank
The Stewmac Emersons are Russian paper-in-oil, so they’d be most comparable with the big K-409 PIO shown in this video.
Oh and I forgot to say that I’m also wanting to install some Led’s. Do you have any advice on that? It’s an Acrylic guitar and I’m debating on whether to have the led’s battery powered and run off of some sort of push pull pot or have them run straight off of the power from the jack. I’m wanting to put a chrome pickguard on it so I don’t want to drill any holes in it. I know that’s a lot of questions lol but I’m trying to get as many answered as I can. Thanks
There is no power “straight off the jack”, so if you want LEDs you’ll need to provide your own battery power source. The chrome pickguard should be pre-drilled to fit your guitar (assuming you have a standard guitar body-style).
Thanks a lot. As far as the Leds are concerned, I was just going off of what I saw from a video called “KAMY051 acrylic plexiglas guitar” by user “artemis92400″. I didn’t see any visible switches or batteries. I didn’t know if there was someway he wired it to a pushpull pot to turn the lights on and off or if the power came directly from the jack. I’m more or less building his guitar with some more upgrades
Nice project! He says in the comments of his video “there is blue standard LED with a 9v battery pack. the lights turn on when the jack is plugged.” Good luck with the project!
First thing I do after buying a guitar is bypass the tone altogether. Pick up configuration provides pretty good tone variation. I’m not interested in losing all those beautiful high frequencies. I’ve never found a valid reason to use tone control.
I only very rarely want to cut out some highs- but I do it sometimes. I like to bypass the tone when I’m not using it, to get that extra bit of sparkle. I either use a push/pull on the tone, or modify the tone pot to be no-load (see my video on how to do that in my channel).
Great job, really appreciate it!
That said, I honestly couldn’t perceive a difference in tone. However, I did notice the differences in how you played. Unfortunately you are a part of the experiment and it’s hard to eliminate your personal biases and human variations in playing style. To me you seemed to “like” the Russian paper in oil the most followed by the vintage yellow.
A black box with a rotary switch wired randomly by a friend would fix that.
Indeed, good points about the human element. Best would be to have no human at all. I’ve been considering a white-noise based test… someday maybe.
I’ve been thinking about setting up a similar experiment, using a wheatstone bridge setup to measure actual signal differences between caps receiving the same signal simultaneously. My buddy says he likes the orange drop best – I still don’t hear it.
My plan is to use a digital recorder to pump an identical white-noise signal into each cap, recording the output. Then in Sound Forge or Wavelab, invert the original white noise signal, and add it to the recorded signal, and show the spectrum analysis of the results for each cap. I’d expect some nice surprises in there.
That would be cool. Test your white noise first, I found some version were not actually flat. Also white noise only gives you an RMS, when a frequency is traveling slightly ahead or behind another it will look identical and yet sound very different.
Thanx a lot …Very good and usefull videos …Keep on Rocking… Greetings from Copenhagen Denmark
Thanx a lot …Very good and usefull videos …Keep on Rocking… Greetings from Copenhagen Denmark
It really useful!! Thank you
where are you ordering these caps from?
It can be posible if I want to put 2 caps on my strat, and a two way mini toggle switch to choose between them for example a .22and a .47 tone cap can this be possible?
Yes you can do that, no problem. Some people install a rotary switch with a bunch of different caps (like a vari-tone).
thank you, you saved me a bunch of money and aggravation.
I like the vintage yellow
Thanks a lot! There’s virtually no difference for me, except for slight changes. But when one seems brighter goovin’, may be darker when playing chords. Made up my mind about not investing high money on a too different cap.
I have custom shop texas specials. Do I need caps or no. Any problems that can happen without them
Are you asking if you need tone caps? You can always leave out or bypass the tone caps for a brighter sound, no problem. You may find your sound is too bright, and if so, you can use lower-resistance volume pots to darken the sound a bit, or add the tone circuit back in.
I like the russian PIO the most, listening to this on very high quality headphones blind, the russians always sounded better to me.
John it is apparent that you are mad scientist. I have something that you would love, and it will audio-able help your demonstrations. The Audio Envy NV-10s cable offers the true-est transfer of guitar tone that I have ever heard. I think you will appreciate removing that giant capacitor of a guitar cable so you can hear your capacitor tests. Hear it on you tube: Boutique Amp Vs Peavey.
Yep, cable capacitance is an important consideration.
I make my own low-capacitance cables – 22pf/foot.
Too lazy to read through all comments, but was wondering: did you test the actual cap values? If they’re +/-5% (or worse), some of the differences could be due to values. ESR ratings would also be of interest. Great vid showing some great work. Thanks for this!
I measured the cap values in the part 3 followup video:
watch?v=S7Hod21pIUI
Awesome!! Thanks.
hi john. i think its like a lot of things a matter of taste. i have done a passive treble and bass control on my strat.came out well, with the treble bleed on the vol pot.the caps i used were old mustard one they had most responce. but thanks its good to see others take pride in sound. and love these types of videos. thankyou
Did a “blind” test the first time. I was reading the comments while listening. Can’t help but notice the distinct sound that the second to the last produced. On second viewing, I found out it was the vintage Mullard. It was a FAST capacitor, It responded to the attack better than the PIO in the first two settings. To me, that spelled the difference. Watch it again and tell me I’m wrong.
do you or word you put a Varitone switch in that guitar and what are the benefits of a Varitone switch and how does it work?
Thanks
John
A varitone switch is a rotary switch with different filtering circuits at at each switch position. The simplest would be to replace the standard tone capacitor with a rotary switch containing a bunch of different tone caps. (Different capacitance values or different material types, etc). Then you can switch between them. Or you could add some inductors/resistors/etc for more complex filtering- band-pass, notch, high-pass, etc.
This was so awesome… thank you
Thanks for this video, I play stoner rock and my favourite is orange drop!
Thank you!
Excellent demonstration, excatly was i was looking for a long time
Howdy! I’ve recently built a TV/Guitar invention I call the “Guitelevision” and would like some other guitarist’s feedback. My demo video is called “Guitelevision” (should be first up if you search it) and I’d love to hear some thoughts. Many thanks! – cwzvideo
You one patient Dude. Thanks for taking the time and sharing.
Russian PIO and the Fat Gray +1 with Mallory close behind. Thank you so much for doing this… I didn’t realize the cap made so much difference with tone pot wide open. I always thought it affected the tone as you introduced the pot resistance.
I think the Mallory was defiantly the best all rounder.
Hey, you have a ton of knowledge on this subject, something I’ve been trying to get into, so lemme ask you, do you do electrical engineering or something or is this just a hobby? Thanks! Keep up the great vids!
Electronics are just a hobby, and I’m by no means an expert. See the FAQ at my blog at planetz for more resources on learning.
Hello, I am trying to make my own eq for vocals, what’s a good capacitor that rolls off bass, or is there a frequency chart that goes with each capacitor?
In part 2 of this video, I explain how capacitors work (understanding how the capacitance value relates to the cutoff frequency, etc) and how to use them in a tone circuit.
The original Epiphone clearly sucks ass!
hi, wanted to ask if you could show where do you connect the alligator clips inside the guitar the guitar? or just upload a picture?
Thanx ahead
For evaluating tone caps, you’ll be replacing the original tone cap with a couple alligator leads. In other words, unsolder the original tone cap which is usually from one lug of the tone potentiometer, to ground. Then connect your alligator clip lead to that same potentiometer lug, and the other alligator clip lead to ground. Then you can try out different caps with the two alligator clips connected to the two cap leads.
John
For some reason I’m digging the Russian and Tropical fish caps.
I would definitely go for the Russian PIO .022uF
Regards
Hmm,there’s abunch of those tropical fish caps in my MXR phase 100 Script..
Well, my vested interest in tone chasing via capacitor types has been greatly depreciated thanks to this. That certainly saves some time.
I don`t hear significant differences.
I have a question . Whats is capacitor actually for?
something like this: http://tinyurl.com/yh9gcr7
There are different versions available with different inputs and some with software bundled. I believe the above can take a guitar input via a 1/4 to rca cable adapter.
Don’t waste your money on expensive caps. You wont hear a difference when used in a guitar tone control. Also being “non-inductive” is only important at much higher frequencies than you will get with a guitar. it’s meaningless in this application.
The bottom line is ANY .02µF (or other value) cap will sound the same in a guitar tone control as long as it reads the same as the others. Any “improvement” on tone is the placebo effect and is imaginary. Also when the tone control in on 10 the cap has zero effect on tone.
The only people who benefit from expensive caps are the people selling them! It’s a rip off people.
Why do you need a 630volt cap in a guitar? “Sonic purity” has to do with the cap used in the signal path, as in an amplifier. If you go to Radio shack and buy a little green film cap rates at .022µF, it will sound like that cap and you will save money you can spend on new strings or something!
Hey David,
While I’m in agreement about it being a waste of money to spend a premium on fancy boutique caps, I definitely do hear subtle differences between the different material types- even measured at the nearly the same capacitance value.
These differences are very subtle, but they are certainly audible – listen to some of the examples in the video, or in the blind tone tests I posted here:
http://www.planetz.com/?p=714
My only explanation is that a capacitor passes signal with variances at different frequencies, and the material/construction subtly influences those variances.
Again, I think these differences are pretty minute, and if you really want to transform your sound- tweaking your pickups, amp, or effects is going to have much more of an impact than the cap material type
You obviously don’t need high-voltage caps for guitar applications – (guitar circuits are extremely low voltage). The orange drop is only a couple dollars- the voltage rating is essentially irrelevant. My point throughout all this was that if you want to experiment with a new tone cap, just buy a few different cap types and capacitance values – try them and pick the one you like. (And ignore the voltage rating!)
John, the thing is signal is not being passed through the caps used in these types of tone control circuits. Any differences in sound have are due to non-linear effects. Of course what ever small difference you hear, you wont in a band situation.
It’s not useless useless you only use one tone all the time. You can get cool cocked wah tones with a .02 or .01µF cap.
But no matter what everyone thinks, when the tone control is on 10, the cap has no impact on the tone! You may be convincing yourself that you hear a difference, but you are really hearing the resistance of the pot. This is due to the impedance of the cap at the frequency it’s cutting at. Putting 250k or 500k of series resistance between the cap and ground results in the cap not doing anything.
Some caps are also leaky and defective. These will cause some changes in tone, but not because of the cap type. All cap types of the same capacitance rating will sound pretty much the same when the tone control is turned down. This is physics.
I’m using a pair of Sennheiser 515HD headphones. My ears are very educated. I build guitars, wind pickups and regularly record in studios.
I hear no differences not due to tolerances in the caps.
People hear what they think they should hear.