Crazy Tone Thing 2: The Sequel
Well, part 2 of the tone video took waaaay longer than I anticipated! I spent a ridiculous amount of time editing, and animating illustrations of the tone circuit.
Here I present a tutorial on how to read cap values, an explanation of how the capacitance and resistance work together as an RC filter in the tone circuit, and some audio examples to help in selecting a useful cap value for a tone circuit.
I play through a series of Orange Drop polypropylene caps with values (pictured right-to-left) .047uF, .022uF, .01uF, 6800pF, 4700pF, 3300pF and 1000pF.
I purchased these Orange Drops at Mouser – significantly cheaper than at guitar specialty stores.
As with part 1 of this video, everything is played on my Epiphone Riviera P93 with Vintage Vibe Guitars P-90 pickups, through my Vox VT30 on the Boutique Clean model, mic’d with a Rode NT1 large diaphragm microphone.
Tagged with: Electronics • Epiphone Riviera P93 • Video
Fantastic job on these videos. I REALLY appreciate all the trouble you went through and am going to use them as a reference for my first build. This is a topic that was in dire need of some audio/visual explanation. Thanks so much!
A true public service, John.
Really good video, has made me want to rummage though your archive!
(As a vintage pedal maker, I picked the Russian paper and oil)
Hey,
great work, I’ve been searching for something like that for a whole while. Keep the great work up!
Best regards from Germany
@Peekadam – hey, it adds up, when you’re buying a lot of pots
The alphas i buy for pedals are more like $1.50
This was awesome – thank you so much for this.
Thanks man. Awesome.
Nerdy in a “very very” cool way. Finally some sense to this for me. Thanx man great job 6800pF it is for me.
This is amazing. How did you acquire your knowledge about circuits.
@goaliedude32 – I learned mostly just by experimenting, and reading. See the FAQ at my blog at planetz for resources and tips.
This is a great and concise explanation. Thanks for posting this.
This video is a favorite on Caracas
Excellent explanation…enjoyed it !
very useful. well done! Thx!
thank u sooooo much for taking the time to make ALL of these vids. it must have taken a lot of time to do all of this for us you tubers
u r very good at editing and giving usefull information that is easy to understand and not incredibly boring. thanks again. this was very usefull to me.
Hello,
Thanks for the video. It is very helpful for the novice building his first guitar. The problem I have run into is that without any type of background the schematic included with my kit may as well be in Greek. Is there a place to see a comprehensive video of wiring two vol., two tone and two hum-bucking pick ups as well as the jack together? Where and how to ground seems so easy until you are faced with it for the first time. Nothing as advanced as you are doing with modifying the tone and such. Which is very cool by the way! Just a good example so I can have benchmark to build upon?
Hi Leonard,
It would be helpful for you to get some basic understanding of how to read the diagrams here at the Guitar Wiring Diagram archive here:
http://www.guitarelectronics.com/category/wiringresources/
These diagrams are more pictorial than a standard electronics schematic- so they show drawings of a pot/switch/cap/etc so you can see exactly how to wire them up.
For example, here’s the link to the standard gibson style 2 humbucker, 2 vol, 2 tone, 3-way switch:
http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/WD2HH3T22_00/Guitar-Wiring-Diagam-w-2-Humbuckers3-Way-Toggle-Switch2-Volumes2-Tones.html
Each line is a wire. If two wires cross, they’re only connected if there’s a dot at the intersection, otherwise they’re just passing over each other.
To identify your humbucker wires, see this post: http://www.planetz.com/?p=799
Hope this helps,
John
Dude….. you’re a bloody genius
Your vid is popular on Rangoon
like this comment if you’ll watch that Fitness – Side Lunge Jump Exercise video at the right –>
This is a very good explanation of a low pass filter, maybe the best I’ve ever came across.
If you would build a hi-pass, would it be done with some L-C filter? If so how would the capacitance/inductance would look like?
@haloblender – For a high-pass filter, you would put the capacitor in series with the signal, with the potentiometer in parallel with the cap. E.g. a 500k pot, and a 2200pF cap will act as a traditional bass roll-off control.
@johnplanetz – check the schematic for the G&L S-500 which has passive bass and treble controls.
I have a G&L s-500, which i purchased a pre-wired pickG with Fralin Vintage Hot pups in all positions, wired as a modern strat with the mini toggle still active. 250k pots in all positions. It sounded terrible, i was ready to sell the guitar because the tone was thin and muddy, always in tune, I kept the Fralins and rewired back to G&L specs What a great difference. The pots are used differently and also get assigned different cap values, also all my caps are much smaller physical than O-Drops.
Fantastic video Thank you for making this so easy for me to understand!
I really enjoyed this and the first part. Very well presented. You have a gift
for teaching. Thanks
Just to say Thanks again for taking the time to do this. It is very much appreciated,
I left a comment on the video too, but wanted to say thanks again. I learned a lot.
Thanks for the feedback Nicky!
-John
thank you, man!
great job bro
You´ve made my search a lot less complex, thanks man. Great vids by the way…
REALLy well explained…. Much appreciated….. Keep well and greetings from New Zealand
well now i know how it works i couldnt understand for the life of me how capacitance in a guitar could be useful but the grounded frequency explanation covered it pretty good.
I love you man. You teach me so much. Why do I even go to school?
These videos are excellent. The comparisons are very helpful and this was the first time anyone has actually explained to me what a tone control physically does to the signal in a straightforward way. Thanks!
How does this apply to bass guitar?
@flipstairs2 – it’s all the same for a bass with passive electronics. You may want a slightly higher capacitance value to roll off more high end. .047uF and .1uF would be fine.
I just watched part one on Pro guitar.Interesting because I have been installing 047 orange Drops on everything for years with 500k pots I love the darker tones. I useually do 047Neck pickup and 033 bridge and for a great jazz to BB King sound I roll that tone down quite a bit.Thankyou so much for the video.I think I’m going to try some Malerys.I also love paper and oil caps.
Everyone that plays needs to see this. Thanks Again!
Nice, i never though of doing a comparison test. I’m an electrical engineer and I am impressed. I switched to a linear 250k pot, it’s easier for me dial in
Nice comparisons but I have a few questions and comments with regards to capacitor types and values.
First off I should note that this type of experiment would be more empirical if the guitar were suspended by an armature and plucked by a very steady and well oiled machine in precisely the same string position with pressure and speed being consistent. Secondly, I have to wonder how close your .022 and .047 cap values were in relation to the other caps of same labeled value (were the caps all matched at exactly .022 by meter or were some of them .020, etc…?). It’s great to see more testing being done on such a subjective topic but it would be really great to see someone go the full mile as it hasn’t really been done publicly yet.
I have seen another test online where someone scoped matching value caps with different dialectics. The test showed the different midrange and treble content and how it changed according to the dialectic. Some dialectics rolled off highs/high mids in a more linear vs logarhythmic way and vs/vs. This test was interesting too.
I have a 6 way cap switch and Lawrence Q-Filter in my guitar with 5 caps each containing a different dialectic – The sixth position is no cap, similar to a Gibson varitone. I can tell a difference in terms of midrange and bass and perceived “clarity” of tone. Some caps have a slightly more “granular” quality to the treble while others sound a TINY BIT less sharp. To be honest I probably could not tell the difference accept to say that one is probably an oil in paper cap vs ceramic or chicklet but only side by side with a reference and never alone.
Hi Justin,
Yes, in an ideal world, I’d have a strumming robot that could take out the variable of my hands. Lacking that, I did the best I could with my non-robotic fingers!
I saw another comparison of different dialectric materials, as I posted here: http://www.planetz.com/?p=726 but he was also was manually strumming/plucking.
I measured the cap values in the followup Q&A in parts 3&4: http://www.planetz.com/?p=709 .
I agree, the differences between dialectric types are pretty subtle. The typical varitone switch has different value capacitances for a range of different filtering- rather than difference dialectrics. But I had the same idea as you that a switch between same values of a couple significantly different dialectric types (like PIO and ceramic) would be useful as another pair of “voices”.
John
So cool, I appreciate the explanation and more importantly the demonstrations!
I already knew this stuff and he’s right on spot. Very well done.
You did a very fine job. And your work has helped me a lot. Cheers!
Fantastic videos
this reminded me of my old A-level physics days. . . ahhhh physics. Brilliant videos though mate!
What would you recomend for a bass? I was recomende a .08 cap with a 250 pot. I don’t know much about tone circuits.
That sounds about right. Bass tone caps are typically between .047 and .1uF, but as I point out in this video, it’s really a personal preference. You may find a smaller capacitance works well for you. Start with the .08 and see if you like it.
Thanks! This is a really big help
thank you very much, this is some peace of genius work !
sweeeeet, subscribed
Great, thanks for sharing! This was very helfpfull and well explained.
What would you recommend for a guitar i wanna play like metal in, And plan on using in like drop D and Drop C?
hi i have a pair of Seymour Duncan Hot Rodded Humbucker Set on my shecter guitar, do you have any suggestion for capacitors? i know that the Jackson RR1 Randy Rhoads have the same pick up combination but i couldn’t find what kind of capacitor it is! Thank’s
To folks asking for cap value recommendations, it’s really a subjective thing. I can’t choose for you. Start with the usual .047 and .022uF caps and see if one of those sounds right to you with your pickups and tone pots. If you don’t like it, experiment (as I show in this video) until you find something you like.
Thank you so much for your videos! Plese, answer my question: Is there a capacitor that block low frequences?
Please review the video at 1:35. All capacitors block lower frequencies, and pass higher frequencies. Inductors work the opposite- passing low frequencies and blocking higher frequencies.
Oh, sorry! I forgot to erase that post. Do you use inductors? Do have any idea where can i find wire diagrams using inductors and capacitors on a two vol- two tone circuit? Because i have looking for it. Thank you so much
A pickup is an inductor. A wah-wah uses an inductor. Inductors aren’t commonly used in guitar tone circuits because you can usually use a capacitor instead – cheaper and easier to use. A cap in to ground parallel with signal is high cut. Cap in series with signal is low-cut. See my blog post “treble and bass” for an example circuit: planetz. com/?p=1650
dude you know way too much about guitars to only own an Epiphone lol
I do have a number of other guitars
But you can find some real gems in the Epiphone product line. And Epi’s make great project guitars!
Awesome.
Woooowwwwwoooowwwww!!!!! thank you thank you thank you thank you dude!!! After 40 years I understand what that knob does……
Exactally what I was looking for. I was gonna try this, I see you did. Saved me the trouble.
On my Tele, I have put a rotary switch between the volume and tone pots. It is a six-way switch, and allows me to select my cap from values ranging from 680pF to 100nF. The small values particularly do interesting things to the tone, rather than just muffling it.
Yes- a varitone circuit (or variations of it) give some nice flexibility. You can have different material types, different cap values, even use inductors along with the caps for more complex filtering- highpass, bandpass, etc.
Nicely presented! if you can show where the plus and minus are ( battery terminals) with respect to the switch and the rest of the circuit ( i.e., low/high pass filter)….it would be perfect!!
This is a simple (and ubiquitous) passive tone circuit- no battery.
An active tone circuit would use an opamp with a cap/resistor network. Search for some schematics and compare passive guitar circuits with active guitar schematics. Even guitars with active preamps sometimes use a passive tone circuit identical to the one shown here.
Ok! basically not an active circuit…..how do the pick ups get powered? through
the jack correct?….then showing the + / – would be ideal to get the whole picture. Thank you!
No! This is a completely passive circuit. A pickup is a long coil of wire wrapped around a magnet. The up/down vibration of the metallic string over the pickup causes fluctuations in the magnetic field, which induces an A/C electric current to flow in the coil of wire.
For more information, see this article at my blog: search “planetz all about pickup magnets”.
Also, see the FAQ at my blog for some good books to read to help your understanding.
Cool! it makes sense now…..I am aware of the Physics theory involved…I got confused since I never saw the complete circuit (ground/going to amp to etc…..to get the whole picture…..I do appreciate your time!…Thank you for your feedback!!!…..
NICE REVIEW AND HELPFUL.I’M GETTING A .047UF CAP FOR MY 250 K POT.OF MY VINTAGE PROJECT STRAT.
SICK, BUT YOU CAN STOP USING CAPS.
I don’t think his circuit will work very well if he doesn’t use caps…
You can certainly have a guitar with no tone circuit, and you’ll get a bit of extra brightness from your pickups that way. But if you want an operational tone knob, you’ll need a tone cap!
Funny- just rereading this- I COMPLETELY MISSED THAT BENTLEY WAS TALKING ABOUT CAPS, not capacitors!
That’s the exact same thing I thought! I didn’t realize it until you pointed it out just then.
thanks bentley
Thanks – very useful info very well presented!
great video
Great video! I do wish to add: … “we want to remove the high frequency…” You should include a 70Hz roll off cap to reduce 60Hz hum. I have some ideas for bass guitar, and proper placement in recoding/mixing. If you set the caps at the bottom & top of the frequency range (install them into the bass) .. you will have a tailored recording, and the mix will come together much cleaner. You need to have an ear for producing in order to get it right.
Hey John,
Just caught both videos on YouTube today as I’m finishing up a strat type project. I will be using two humbuckers and a single coil with taps etc. Your videos were very helpful… Thanks for the intel.
Best,
EMH
Cool! Enjoy the new Strat.
John
Great informational video! However, there are a few issues. As the guitar tone control is a part of the complete circuit, it doesn’t behave as it would on an ideal (= active) circuit. The guitar pickup itself has inductance, capacitance and impedance, so the tone network is not an RC network but an LRC network. Therefore the tone control will not just lower the cutoff frequency. If it would, you would get the exact sound of a 10nF cap with a 47nF cap with the tone rolled to the correct position.
(…continued) Instead, the LRC network will create a resonance around the corner frequency that sounds like a mid boost, best heard when the tone is rolled all the way off. That makes the tone control work more like a resonant fixed frequency cutoff.
Thanks for posting this info here! In this video, I was trying to keep it as simple as possible. When people inquire, I usually point them to Helmuth Lemme’s 1986 article “The Secrets of Electric Guitar Pickups”, which goes into good detail on resonance in the LRC circuit, also taking into account the external load, cable capacitance, amp input impedance, etc.
(…continued) Another thing is the generally used tone cap values. The pot values are way higher than the pickup impedance itself (4-20kohm), so 47nF caps are not used in a Strat because of the 250kohm pots, but because of the lower impedance and inherently brighter sound of the single coil pickups.
Thanks for clarifying. The lower-resistance 250k volume/tone pot loads the pickups to ground more significantly than a 500k pot, thereby producing a darker/warmer sound. So a .047uF tone cap and a 250k pot are a double-whammy to reduce brightness on the inherently brighter strat. Even on strats, I prefer using 500k pots so that you have the option of the brightness if you want it. You can turn down the tone, but you can’t get the treble back if the pickup is already loaded down with a 250k pot.
Thank you for responding! I’m all for 500k tone pots as well, but I do recognize the need for a 250k vol when aiming for a lush sweet old Strat tone. But I feel the difference between the 47nF and 22nF caps is not obvious on either 250k or 500k pots until you turn down the tone, and that’s when the cutoff frequency becomes more important than the load on the pickups.
BTW, I use 22nF on a strat and 15nF on a LP style guitar ’cause I don’t like the volume reduction but do like the midrange honk!
Thanks- good suggestions!
I have a question. I have a G&L Tribute ASAT bluesboy, humbucker in the neck single coil in the bridge. The neck PU is really muddy. What value pots and caps should I be using, I’m upgrading the electronics to a Seymour Duncan SH-55N Seth Lover Humbucker and Seymour Duncan STK-T2B Hot Lead Stack. You know so much about signals, I would really appreciate any feed back. Thanks!
Great video, with tons of information……..Good Job!!!!! I have been thinking to see if i can use a .018uf cap instead of .022 for my les paul, would it make a huge difference????
.018uF is not a standard capacitance value. .015uF is more common. (You can always use a couple caps in series or parallel to get your own preferred value, but why complicate it?) It’ll make a difference in your LP, but it’ll be subtle. Try it with alligator leads and see how it feels!
4700
you rock man.. on to part 3
By far the best explanation of capacitors I have ever seen. Thanks man!
+1 the best explanation!
Hi.
Even in this one I still liked that .0022uF
Regards.
Hi. Sorry I meant .022uF
Regards
¡Great! Thaks.
Thanks for the useful vids on caps and tone
Some videos on analogue compressor and channel strip type electronics would be fantastic, so we can see what is really behind the boxes.
Great video. I’m just starting to learn to understand how electrical components influence tone in both guitar and amplifier circuits. I wonder though, how can you achieve resonance around the corner frequency of the capacitor? My guitar’s tone circuit does some of that but I have no idea how they do it.
There’s a good article that should help you understand the circuit resonance. Search for The Secrets of Electric Guitar Pickups by Helmuth E. W. Lemme.